Too Jewish?
A quote from the Schechter Rebranding article in last week's New York Jewish Week:
"With even many highly engaged American Jews shying away from denominational labels and growing numbers of interfaith families whose children aren’t Jewish according to the traditional halachic definitions to which the Conservative movement adheres, it is not clear whether Schechter schools, which pride themselves on their rigorous Judaic studies, serve a large enough niche to be viable.
“They’re affected even more than others by what’s happening in American Jewish life,” said Schick. Schechter schools on average devote more hours to Judaic studies than community schools do, Schick said, and that might be a problem: the Conservative schools are “more religious than most non-Orthodox American Jews want to be.”"
Now there's a phrase that I haven't heard before, and I wonder whether it applies to the Conservative Movement as a whole. Is the "official" version of Conservative Judaism “more religious than most non-Orthodox American Jews want to be”? In my own personal opinion, based on my 62 years as a Conservative Jew, the answer, for many, though not all, Conservative Jews, is "yes."
posted by Shira Salamone at 12:44 PM
25 Comments:
From my experience, I have seen many Conservative pulpit rabbis try to advocate things that are positions that the Conservative movement believes on paper such as keeping Shabbat (by C standards) and keeping kosher (I was heard a C rabbi urge his congregants to not simply avoid pork and shellfish but to not eat treif meat and chicken either at home or out.) In almost all of these cases, the rabbis were widely criticized by a majority of congregants for being "too Orthodox" As I have said many tims, for the most part, Conservative is Reform for people who want a more traditional service.
Our allegedly-traditional Conservative synagogue includes members who won't travel on Shabbat and members who go out to a local coffee shop for lunch after Shabbat morning services. It's not so much that Conservative Judaism has no standards as that many Conservative *Jews* have, well, different standards than those that the Movement officially advocates. I agree that many Conservative Jews are Conservative, rather than Reform, for the sole reason that they're more comfortable with a more traditional service.
Follow the money. Schechter schools are tremendously expensive, and are more expensive than any Orthodox counterparts. Sending a kid to Schechter for 9 years is like sending two kids to a private college. We just had a huge financial downturn, and uncertainly lingers.
Public schools are free.
The title of your post is illuminating, though. When my wife mentioned to a fellow congregant that we were looking into Schechter, her response was something along the lines of "wow, really? But that's just so...Jewish!"
My husband says that that many Conservative Jewish parents are more interested in raising their children to be good Americans and don't want their children to be "that Jewish," (or, at least, that was probably true in earlier generations). And the fact that the tuition is high doesn't help. I would dispute, however, your claim that Schechter is more expensive that Orthodox day schools. I don't know what prices are like outside of the New York City metropolitan area, but there are some pretty darned expensive Orthodox day schools in metro NYC.
I can at least speak to several parts of New England and Texas to say conclusively that every non-Orthodox school costs far more than the Orthodox counterparts in the respective communities. Generally, it appears that the more frum the school is, the cheaper it is--and the weaker the secular academics are. I can't speak to NYC, but as with all things, especially all things Jewish, NYC is a universe unto itself.
With regard to the narrower issue raised in the comments, as a schechter school parent who is knowledgeable of the costs of equivalent modern orthodox day schools, I can assure you that, at least in the greater NY/NJ metro region, there is no meaningful price difference between MO and Conserv schools. Tuition at schools which identify themselves as yeshivas is substantially less. But there is also a substantial trade-down in the quality of education, particularly on the secular side. And the lower prices has yielded a certain instability -- several yeshivas have closed in the area or are struggling on the verge of closing, due to finances and an inability to attract the students whose parents want the day school, rather than yeshiva, education.
I'm hoping to provide a lengthier comment on the broader issue -- "Is the 'official' version of Conservative Judaism 'more religious than most non-Orthodox American Jews want to be'?" In a word, yes. But it's far more complicated then that.
The theological line between Conservative Judaism and Modern Orthodoxy is actually pretty small, and predominately stupid.
Kashrut: the Conservative movement staked out some dumb positions, swordfish. As a Baal Teshuva, I've eaten swordfish, it's just not that exciting a fish. To put your dedication to Kashrut into question over swordfish is dumb. Same thing with non-"kosher" cheese/wine. Yes the Conservative movement's position on it is intellectually tenable and reasonable, but for no useful purpose, they put themselves outside Halacha to do it. Plenty of Modern Orthodox Jews do drink non-kosher wine and eat "dairy out" -- I don't know the numbers, but I know people that do both -- but by putting it "out there" Teshuva-wise, they lost the laity and put themselves outside.
Women Rabbis, openly gay Rabbis -- certainly a huge dividing line, and one I'd consider pretty pointless. I'd guess that 0.1% of Conservative Jews have Rabbinic ordination, but it's a pretty public thing. So while excluding openly gay Rabbis and female Rabbis might seem wrong, it's a non issue for 99.9% of the laity, so a dumb thing to stake your cause on.
Shabbat - Driving Teshuvah, pretty much it, and widely accepted as their biggest mistake. Chabad has shown that you can keep Shabbat as an ideal AND throw a big tent, but going on record as supported desecrating the Sabbath was dumb.
What's my point with this? What a Modern Orthodox school and Conservative school "mean" in terms of education is relatively minor. You'll see distinctive educational tracks at the high school level, but for PK-8, there just isn't a big difference.
What IS a big difference is that at a Modern Orthodox school, there will be various degrees of observant families. At a Shechter school, you'll have families that want their kids to learn about Judaism, but not practice it. So if you are an observant family, you're paying a ton of money and you have the same cultural issues as at a non-Jewish school, non Kosher birthday parties, birthday parties on Saturday, etc. So if you're not strictly Shomer Shabbat but do Shabbat meals/services, a Shechter kid has to choose between birthday parties and Shul/Seudah with the family.
A traditional conservative family that wants a K-8 education and is picking a Kindergarten is going to find that they are much more comfortable with a Modern Orthodox school than a Shechter, for the cultural practices that matter in elementary school. A liberal conservative family that wants a traditional service but an American lifestyle is going to find a Shechter school unacceptable for the same reason they'll find a Modern Orthodox school unacceptable, it's really expensive and will preach to the children things that they don't believe. OTOH, a "community" day school will be cultural Jewish without preaching anything.
Where the educational path and ideologies come into being is really 9-12, with Modern Orthodox schools becoming Chareidi Yeshivot in the morning and mediocre public schools in the afternoon, but non-Orthodox families don't want high school, they want their children to learn their heritage and go through Bar/Bat Mitzvah without "Hebrew school," then buckle down and get into a good college so they can move up/stay the same socio-economically as they grew up. Orthodox families, since they went to Day Schools, have a Chareidi ideology without the lifestyle, so don't really think that good college matters, they think that YU/Touro matters depending on "how religious" the kids are. Therefore, the mediocrity of the high schools doesn't matter as much as "do the kids do one or two years in Israel" and "do the kids go to YU or Touro?"
Yes, in NYC there are exceptions, but by and large, that is the core cultural difference.
While a MO Jew might prefer their child go to Harvard than YU, they aren't comfortable expressing that publicaly (Chareidi theology), so they send to a school that discourages that and figure that they'll teach their kid otherwise.
TOTJ Steve, thanks for confirming my impression of the tuition differential--from what you can see as a Schechter School parent, the big difference in tuition in the NYC metro area is between day schools and yeshivot, not between Ortho and Conserv. That's what I thought.
"I'm hoping to provide a lengthier comment on the broader issue -- "Is the 'official' version of Conservative Judaism 'more religious than most non-Orthodox American Jews want to be'?" In a word, yes. But it's far more complicated then that."
I'm looking forward to reading that comment.
Miami Al, where do I begin? Was it worth it for the Conservative Movement to stake out official positions on swordfish, cheese, and wine that put them at odds with the Orthodox? Possibly not. As for the so-called "Driving" teshuvah, they might have done better just keeping quiet on the issue. (At my parents' synagogue, which was stupidly built in a largely non-Jewish neighborhood, almost *everyone* drove to synagogue, since almost no one lived within reasonable walking distance, but *no one* parked in front of the synagogue, despite the teshuvah.) I agree that "you can keep Shabbat as an ideal AND throw a big tent, but going on record as supported desecrating the Sabbath was dumb."
I disagree on the issue of ordaining women and gays--I *don't* think that this is "a non issue for 99.9% of the laity." This isn't a matter of practice, it's a matter of principle--differing over ritual/bein adam l'Makom aspects of halachah/Jewish religious law is not the same as differing over social-justice/bein adam l'chavero aspects of halachah/Jewish religious law.
"What IS a big difference is that at a Modern Orthodox school, there will be various degrees of observant families. At a Shechter school, you'll have families that want their kids to learn about Judaism, but not practice it."
Years ago, a former rabbi of ours told us that he and his wife had chosen to send their children to Orthodox day schools because the local Schechter School didn't provide a wash-stand for n'tilat yadayim/ritual hand-washing in the student cafeteria--when asked, the staff replied that any student who wished to do a ritual hand-washing before eating bread could go to the boys' or girls' room. The rabbi and rebbitzen were appalled, since, according to the *official* version of Conservative Judaism, n'tilat yadayim/ritual hand-washing before eating bread is *required,* not optional. They chose to send their children to an Orthodox day school where the cafeteria included numerous netilat yadayim cups at a long built-in sink.
There was also an interesting story making the rounds some years ago about a Schechter School that had to put its official foot down and make it crystal clear to their Israeli-American parents that Schechter is a *religious* school where their children *would* study Jewish subjects and participate in daily prayer services in addition to just learning to read and write the Hebrew that they were speaking at home. I can't imagine that it would ever occur to even the most non-observant family that they could send their kid(s) to an Orthodox day school and expect their kids not to learn Judaism as a religion.
For many, not all, but many, they expect schools like Shecther to teach _ABOUT_ Judaism, so that kids can learn about religion in the hypothetical, but not actually practice. For example, in a lot of non-Orthodox day schools, they teach brachot, even giving tests on what the proper bracha is for each food, etc, but no one is really expected to make brachot during lunch.
Where I live, a non-Orthdox visitor to an Orthodox school didn't understand why little kids were makinga brach in unison with their secular studies/English teacher during snack time.
Shira,
Maybe. I just think that the people that would have bolted Conservative for Reform over female Rabbis and gay Rabbis are bolting anyway, they aren't going to feel at home in a traditionalist congregation, so all you're doing is losing the traditional side.
I could be wrong, but my wife noticed a few years ago that EVERYONE active in Hillel from college, mostly non-Orthodox, with one exception, have an indication of Orthodox affiliation on their Facebook profile... this includes the hardcore Reform Jews involved in national and international organizations, etc. I don't know that this moved the numbers, but the Conservative movement (and to a lesser extent the Reform movement), lost their most dedicated members.
I understand that that's more controversial, but the fact that at this point the new Rabbinate is largely female, and largely intermarried (possibly with a sham conversion) has done more damage to Conservative Judaism than anything else.
There was a bizarre article in Jewcy a few years back, My Rabbinical Ambitions are Ruining my Love Life by a Reform rabbninical student that found it nearly impossible to date because of various cultural factors tied up in her being a Rabbi-trainee.
But essentially, while it might be the "right" thing to do, the ordination of women has been a boon for Reform Judaism, and an utter disaster for Conservative Judaism. At this point, traditionalist Jews are finding more of a home being non-observant in Chabad than in a Conservative synagogue, and that's a shame.
"For example, in a lot of non-Orthodox day schools, they teach brachot, even giving tests on what the proper bracha is for each food, etc, but no one is really expected to make brachot during lunch."
At a community Day School, you'll get that. At a Schechter, you are more likely to get taught to do things in a Conservative manner. The fact is, most Conservative Jews don't do it, so there isn't a draw to a school that expects their children to be practicing Conservative Jews.
"I just think that the people that would have bolted Conservative for Reform over female Rabbis and gay Rabbis are bolting anyway, they aren't going to feel at home in a traditionalist congregation, so all you're doing is losing the traditional side."
Is the ordination of women and/or gays sending our traditionalists into the Orthodox camp? In many cases, yes. But sometimes a denomination's gotta do what a denomination's gotta do.
Shira,
Sure, absolutely. However, those decision have, over time, contributed to the Conservative Movement being nothing other than the Reform movement with longer services.
The Reform Movement, abandoning much of exilic Jewish tradition, refocused their Rabbinic training on pastoral work and public speaking, what Reform Jews look for in their Rabbi. Reform Jews was a Rabbi that is warm, welcoming, and approachable, a woman that reminds the congregate of her Protestant Minister growing up. It makes Reform Judaism comfortable for a woman married to a Jewish man that wants some "religion" for her children but doesn't really care for the theology she nominally grew up with.
There is a reason that they are growing, they have focused on large niches.
Likewise with the gay Jewish market, the Reform movement is clearly their only home, even shedding any sort of gender structure in Conservative Judaism it's still "there" because the culture you are conserving has gender identities.
The Conservative movement has watched it's laity become indistinguishable from Reform, yet is still training it's Rabbinate like they are being Gemara experts. YU has had to focus on pastoral training since their goal is pulpit Rabbis, and the Conservative movement still wants its Rabbis to understand Halacha, but nobody goes to a Conservative Rabbi for Halachic advice... marital advice, etc., absolutely, hence the need for pastoral training.
The traditional camp is a large chunk of American Judaism, and it has no home right now. For whatever reason, the Conservative Movement decided to fight a losing battle with Reform for the left-wing, instead of its winning batter with Orthodoxy for the center-right. As a result, you're seeing an Orthodoxy that is sliding FAR to the right, and your traditionalist Jews brought along for the ride.
An interesting phenomenon I've noticed lately regarding the lack of difference between Reform and Conservative laity. It seems that C Jews are waking up to the fact that quickie conversions for the sake of marriage are bogus and not really required. I know a lot of self identified C Jews (meaning they go to a C shul, but their personal theology and level of observance is Reform) who think that the only problem with intermarriage is that a C rabbi can't perform the ceremony. So these nominal C Jews get intermarried without the benefit of even a token conversion and go to the local Reform rabbi to perform the marriage, often with the advice and consent of their Conservative rabbi! I know one person who has gone on record as being opposed to intermarriage (an increasing rarity among C Jews) who recently attended the Reform intermarriage of the child of a co-congregant at their C shul. When I questioned as to why they were OK with this, they responed, "but it's OK, it was Reform."
"The Conservative movement has watched it's laity become indistinguishable from Reform . . ."
Largely true, in my opinion.
"The traditional camp is a large chunk of American Judaism, and it has no home right now. For whatever reason, the Conservative Movement decided to fight a losing battle with Reform for the left-wing, instead of its winning batter with Orthodoxy for the center-right. As a result, you're seeing an Orthodoxy that is sliding FAR to the right, and your traditionalist Jews brought along for the ride."
That's probably also true, Miami Al. As Garnel Ironheart said in a Blogspot-erased comment to DovBear's May 11, 20011 "Hirhurim double standard" post (see the link in the comments to my May 11 "Certification smackdown" post):
" . . when it comes to Orthodoxy, there is a definite left edge beyond which a person is no longer considered to be practising Orthodoxy. Rabbi Weiss seems to revel in pushing his followers as close to that edge as possible . . . . Hence the strong reaction to Rabbit [sic] Hurwitz.
However, and I think this is a huge problem to which there is no satisfactory answer, there is no right edge to Orthodoxy. The most cuckoo-nuts Satmar who burns an Israeli flag daily before putting on his tefillin and thinks that burkas are minimalist clothing when it comes to tznius [modesty] is still considered Orthodox. Even those NK's [Neturei Karta?] who have been banned by other UO [ultra-Orthodox] groups are still Orthodox -the banning is for politlcal, not religious reasons."
"I know a lot of self identified C Jews (meaning they go to a C shul, but their personal theology and level of observance is Reform) . . . these nominal C Jews get intermarried without the benefit of even a token conversion and go to the local Reform rabbi to perform the marriage,"
I'm afraid to say anything on the subject of intermarriage, since our only child is male and single, and, according to halachah/Jewish religious law, the religion of a child is determined by the religion of the child's mother. We're praying that, if he marries, he marries a Jew, so that our only grandchild(ren), if any, will be halachically Jewish. And if not? Am I really prepared to accept my beloved grandchild(ren)'s non-Jewish status?
Shira,
I have non Jewish cousins, I don't love them any less, and when they come for a Pesach seder, they run the disposers for us so their isn't a build up. :)
But you are seeing the problem people face in the Reform/Conservative movement that stems from very small family sizes. The Chareidim are willing to write off a child for becoming modern Orthodox, but they have 6 or 7 kids. The Modern Orthodox, with 3-4 kids, don't write off non-frum kids, but intermarriage crosses a line. For the Reform/Conservative 1-2 children families, there is no willingness to draw a line, because the power is on the children's side.
I mean, if your grandchildren are non-Jewish, would you switch to Reform so that you can be internally consistent in loving and caring about them, or should you stay where you are, where your worldview and practice is more in line. What a disaster to be in either way.
Miami Al,
Another issue is, that somewhere along the line, in the non-Orthodox world, their position went from "intermarriage is not allowed" to "intermarriage is allowed, but I won't like it if you do." Once it became within the realm of possibility of course kids are going to do it. And since Reform Jews believe in patralineal descent and some polls show that 66% of Conservative Jews do, there is no "penalty" as it were for intermarriage. Nominally Conservative Jewish men who marry non-Jewish women can either send their kid to the Reform temple or they can go to the Conservative where their kid will have a quickie no-questions asked conversion a week or sometimes even a few days before their bar/bat mitzvah.
"But you are seeing the problem people face in the Reform/Conservative movement that stems from very small family sizes. . . . For the Reform/Conservative 1-2 children families, there is no willingness to draw a line, because the power is on the children's side."
You have a point, but that horse has already left the barn--I'm 62, and not likely to have any more kids. To be honest, I never planned to have more than 2 children. Things didn't work out exactly as planned, and I chickened out after the first one. (See my series "Park your ego at the door--On raising a child with disabilities"). That said, while there's a price to be paid for having a small family, there's also a price to be paid for having a large family. As the saying goes, "You pick your poison."
"somewhere along the line, in the non-Orthodox world, their position went from "intermarriage is not allowed" to "intermarriage is allowed, but I won't like it if you do." Once it became within the realm of possibility of course kids are going to do it." This is the downside of not "sitting shiva" for an intermarried child. But I've seen too many cases of non-Jewish spouses who later convert to be willing to write off our son if he marries out.
Shira,
I don't mean to say that you should have [had] more children. I'm saying the declining family size in non-Orthodox Judaism let to a societal change. I'm sure you can point out Reform families with 6 or 7 kids, just like you can find childless Chassic Rebbes, but the shifting family size shifts the dynamic in the culture.
Judaism teachers children to honor their parents.
Small family sizes in contemporary America teaches parents to honor their children.
Orthodox families with multiple children in day school commit 1/3 to 1/2 of the income to private school tuition for years. If the likelihood of those children reaching adulthood was the same as 100 years ago, do you think that this would have taken off?
But agreed, once intermarriage went from prohibited to frowned upon, of course it shot through the roof. Most of my female friends were not at all concerned with marrying a Jewish guy, since their children would be Jewish regardless.
Speaking of "Too Jewish", the Reform aren’t having much better luck than the Conservatives, according to this Mah Rabu post.
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